Episode transcript with Dr Irena Yashin-Shaw
This is an episode transcript with my guest, Dr Irena-Yashin-Shaw. Listen to the First Time Facilitator conversation here.
Leanne: We are very lucky to have today's guest on the First Time Facilitator Podcast. I would like to welcome Dr. Irena Yashin-Shaw to the show. Dr. Irena thanks so much for joining us.
Dr. Irena Yashin-Shaw: My absolute pleasure, Leanne. Thank you very much for having me.
Leanne: No problem at all. It was an absolute delight meeting you at Jane Anderson's workshop a couple of months ago. I've been sort of following your work for some time and then you were in the room, it was a bit crazy and that's how this interview all happened. I'd like to start just by talking about your career history. I love asking all the facilitators on the show how they wound up in the roles that they're in. You are not only a facilitator; you are one of Australia's leading experts in innovation, creativity, and leadership. How did to you get to this stage?
Irena: Well, it's been a bit of a journey, an interesting journey, Leanne. I started out as a teacher, in fact, I was a high school teacher. My whole life has been devoted in one form or another to education and the nurturing and the releasing of human potential. I was a teacher for a number of years and that prompted me to go into a master's degree in education, at which point I discovered I absolutely loved educational psychology and really delving into theory and research and how that could be translated into practice. I then went on to do a PhD in creative problem-solving. Specifically looking at how people gain expertise in solving open-ended kinds of ill-defined problems.
Then after that, I went on to the education faculty at Griffith University and was also continuing some research. Worked on a number of different research projects and then at about 12 years ago, decided that it was time to step out and start my own practice, but still in education because I now work with adults and do various forms of education through workshops, through keynote presenting and speaking, through mentoring programs. Essentially, I'm still an educator and I have been my whole career. That is me through and through. That is my mission in life, my purpose for being on this planet.
It's been a privilege and an interesting journey to just go through those various incarnations of being an educator in those different contexts.
Leanne: That's right. I love that your mission is so loud and clear. You started as a high school teacher, I'm wondering what were the differences that you found between teaching high school students and then working with adults in corporate life? Are there any similarities? I know sometimes it feels like I've got some 15-year-olds in the room, but what did you notice, what was a bit different?
Irena: Now look, working with adults is very different to working with students and there's a whole degree of-- There's a whole lot of research around the difference between pedagogy and andragogy and how adults need to learn things in a context in which the information is as quickly applicable as possible. Now that also works for students, but it is somewhat different because adults, absolutely, need to have a really good reason why they are learning something new and what the benefits of those will be to them and to their workplace and how they can apply that learning immediately so that it becomes embedded, and they need to have a very hands-on approach.
They need to see the immediate benefits offered in order for them to invest the time and effort into learning new things. There is a big difference. I loved my time as a teacher. I enjoyed my time in the classroom and now I enjoy my time in the training room with adults. It's just a different incarnation.
Leanne: It is a different incarnation. I agree with you, the immediate benefit I think especially adults, we're very time poor so when we're called out to go to a workshop or some sort of training course, we want to see that immediate benefit.
Irena: Absolutely.
Leanne: I know that both as a facilitator and as a participant who it's time poor, how do we then teach big things? You talked about creativity, and you did your PhD on solving complex problems, how do you teach that in a way where people walk out feeling that they've got an immediate benefit when it's such a complex topic that you're teaching?
Irena: Well look, it depends on how deeply people want to take a dive into those areas and how much of it they want to transfer immediately into their professional practice. I've done workshops which might be, say, a half-day workshop, where we do identify the concepts.
It's more a consciousness-raising situation because we can't teach deep complex problem-solving in a couple of hours. For that, we need people to be prepared to go on a journey. The best way, of course, is to start with seeing the relevance for that information for them. For example, with my solution center change program, which is built around learning the skills of understanding one's own creative problem-solving preference then developing our creativity and then looking at how we can collaborate with others, that's a wonderful introduction for people to then be ready to take some of the tools that I introduce them to in that experience.
Then move on to begin to applying them in the workplace and actually solving problems. You don't learn about this stuff by hearing about it. The way you learn about this is to become confident in using the tools. I've got a whole suite of tools when I'm working with adults and we're training around innovation and creativity and intrapreneurialism. I've got a variety of processes and frameworks and methodologies that people can see themselves in and then they use those frameworks and strategies and tools in order to support their activity where they actually solve real problems and get real outcomes that are measurable and quantifiable.
Then they develop their confidence in them and then they can reuse them again without the scaffold of my mentoring because they've acquired the skills to know how they can then adapt to that complex information for new situations.
Leanne: That's a question I often ask the facilitators on the show is it's all well and good to deliver an incredibly engaging workshop where you've got great participation but haven't you bed lining after that? I think you just spoken to that in terms of you give them the confidence in that workshop to apply all the tools and methods. Your job is really making something complex very simple for them.
Irena: Yes. Well with many of my programs now, even with my one-day workshops, I ask people to come with issues already identified that they want to solve during the course of the day. Now that's a bigger ask, actually solving something in a day, but in the mentoring programs, we're able to take a few months. Learning needs to be contextualized. For adults, if it's decontextualized, if it's not immediately relevant, it just slips off people's already very busy minds and it doesn't get embedded and it doesn't get transferred.
One of the ways that I address that is by asking people to do some pre-work before they come into their first experience with me already having got their mind in the right space, already having done the background reading, already having thought through what are the key issues that they want to solve. That way we've really hit the ground running when we're working together.
Leanne: [unintelligible 00:42:57] some of the workshops that you're running are really based on this concept of intrapreneurialism which is-- We've all heard about entrepreneurs. There's a guy in London called Chris Ducker who's talking about youpreneurs, can you explain what intrapreneurs are for our listeners and why they're so important for organizations into the future?
Irena: Look, it's a term that still I'm finding not many people are familiar with. If I'll say intrapreneur, people go, "Oh, you actually do mean entrepreneur." "No. No, I don't. I mean an intrapreneur." The intrapreneur is someone who thinks and acts like an entrepreneur while working inside a large organization or a business or a government agency, whatever the case may be. It's someone who has that kind of entrepreneurial mindset is looking for opportunities to solve high-value problems and bring that value into their workplace but it's not their own business.
They are doing it in the context of the existing organization that they are already working within, but they are finding new ways of doing things or new ways of adding value, new ways of delighting customers, new ways of increasing revenue, but they're doing it unbidden. They're doing it because they've got that kind of drive to want to go above and beyond what the basic role description might be of their jobs. These are the people who I just say they are the future of the organization because these are the people who bring enormous value to whatever contexts that they're working in.
I use the metaphor of a helium balloon or a hot air balloon where despite the pull of gravity, it still manages to get lift off and soar into the wild and widely yonder. Intrapreneurs are a bit like that so despite the pull of gravity that might keep them shackled whether it's bureaucratic procedures or entrenched practices or business as usual thinking within the context, they've got that drive and that entrepreneurial spirit that means that they will find ways of getting around obstacles, of rising above those things that keep others shackled in order to do differently and create new values.
Leanne: I love the phrase. I think it's brilliant, and I've worked where I currently work in a big corporate company, big global organization. I worked for the Western Australian State Government, so I'm very aware of the gravity that you talk about. I'd like to find out, and I feel like sometimes I have a bit of a helium balloon in an organizations but from time to time, the gravity can bog you down a bit, how do you encourage these people that have this intrapreneurial drive to keep going when there are barriers which could be real or perceived? Things like delegations of authority, clunky systems, processes which make it really hard to be creative.
I'm saying perceived because I think they are but how do you keep people motivated that have that drive?
Irena: Well, when I work with them, the first thing I do is give them a pathway. If people feel like they're making progress, then they will stay motivated. It's demotivating when people putting a lot of effort into something and they genuinely see absolutely no progress, or they get stuck in busy work that looks like there's a lot happening there but it's actually not delivering any outcomes. I think you probably know what I mean by that. You don't really see worth.
Leanne: I do.
Irena: Always so busy, we're so busy but what's actually happening in terms of value? Are we actually creating value through all of that busyness? One of the things that I encourage people to do is to take time out to give themselves some dedicated headspace to think. Now that sounds like a real luxury when you go, "Oh, really you're going to take half an hour just to think. That's a bit of a luxury, isn't it?" I say well actually that's the most important work that you can possibly do. Because unless we've got that headspace to think, then nothing else happens. That's also the time when we replenish our motivation, we can see through the barriers, we can actually look at what the possibilities and options are et cetera.
I do encourage people to do that on a regular basis and in a dedicated way and not just leave it to chance. That's one thing that people can do to keep themselves fresh and motivated. The other thing that I find really valuable with some people who work with me within organizations is to start little communities of practice so that they can actually hang out with other people who are like them in the entrepreneurial spirit and wanting to drive intrapreneurial initiatives. When I work within an organization, I'll often help them to start up either something that we refer to as a community of practice where they get together and learn from each other and encourage each other or I say, do some out loud learning.
Learning out loud where they might go off and have lunch together but deliberately talk about what it is that they're doing and that way they're actually encouraging each other as well. If people can show the benefit and the value of what it is that they're wanting to do, then those perceived bureaucratic barriers aren't always as impenetrable as people think. Because who's going to be crazy enough to say to an intrapreneur who comes along and says, "I've got this fantastic idea that if we implement is going to save this business $100,000 over the next year."
Can you seriously imagine anyone in their right mind going, "Well, actually we don't really want to know about that. Get back to work and keep going."? Something that people aren't particularly good at, and it's one of the things that I do, I've started to focus on increasingly in my programs, is people being able to articulate very clearly the value of what it is that they're proposing. If they can be really clear about the benefits and lead with the benefits-driven case and advocate for their ideas in a way that foregrounds the benefits, not just for them but for their team, for their organization, for the world if necessary.
If they can articulate those really clearly, then there is so much more likelihood that the resistance will be less, and their ideas will be taken up and supported through the organization.
Leanne: In the example that you just gave about, "Hey, I've got an initiative and it's going to save us $100,000 this year," not many people even get to the stage where they put a quantity.
Irena: Correct.
Leanne: It's just like, "Oh, this is a great idea," but then they don't translate to benefit.
Irena: That's absolutely true, Leanne. It's one of the things that I've in some ways been a little bit surprised about. People and sometimes in corporations or government departments or even large businesses who don't work in the finance area, they aren't used to taking that extra step of quantifying the return on investment. One of the things that I get them to do in my Human Helium Program, towards the end as they bring in their projects to fruition, is to literally do the maths on what they've done. What benefit has your project or initiative brought back to the organization, how much time has it saved frustration, how has it streamlined processes?
Then we literally do the math, and we put dollar signs on it and go, "Okay, well if it saves this much time, and you've done one out of 50 forms that you've digitized, what does that add up to in terms of dollars? Now let's multiply that across the organization, let's multiply that across a year." People are invariably absolutely staggered when they see the dollar sign at the end that what they thought was a relatively humble initiative, brings back to the organization in terms of lost productivity and gains in efficiencies and effectiveness to the business. You're right, people aren't used to taking that additional step and so it's actually become a really important part of the work that I do with intrapreneur.
Leanne: It sounds like a lot of-- You're talking at the beginning of facilitators and how they need to ensure that the audience understands how relevant the training is. This is another example of not styles but a bit of persuasion, a bit of marketing efforts that go behind both being a facilitator and being an intrapreneur and demonstrating value through the way you communicate. Just on the topic of communication, when I did meet you at that workshop with Jane Anderson, you put up your hand and spoke about the photographer that was in the room and how great her work was, but you spoke in this way that everyone just turned, and you were very compelling.
You've got this incredible voice and presence, how did you develop that?
Irena: Thank you so much for saying that. Such kind words, Leanne. You're too kind.
Leanne: Very well deserved.
Irena: Look, it's been a journey and it's been something that I've been interested in my whole life. Quite apart from my work as an educator, I've been fascinated by the whole area of psychology and, in particular, personal psychology and personal empowerment and what is it that gives people that sense of agency and self-efficacy and self-determination and a belief in themselves and that sense of confidence that they can make a difference and change the world if they want to. Part of the reason I think I embarked on that was because, as you might have heard me share that day when we met, I'm extremely tiny. I am at the extreme end of the bell curve in terms of my height.
I'm a really diminutive, very, very petite woman. I think early in my life, I came to realize that when you're really tiny, you can be in danger of being overlooked or given the wrong kind of attention. Not that people were deliberately doing it, but you just don't have that huge physical presence that someone who's 6 foot 4 and built like a house automatically has because of their physical stature. I realized that because of my tiny stature, I was going to have to really work on myself to make sure that I had the impact on the world that I wanted to create.
I embarked on, not that I knew it at the time but, a whole lot of development activities that were designed around creating that sense of confidence and that capacity to impact and influence in the world. Back in my school days, I was a debater, I was in all of the school musicals. Then when I left and went into the workforce, even while I was a teacher, I joined Toastmasters, I went off and did Speech and Drama qualifications, I learned some theater techniques for presenting oneself, I did improv, I worked on my voice, I worked on my speech skills, worked on my presentation skills but having fun along the way because it was my hobby.
I was doing all of these purely because I was interested in it and I got a lot of satisfaction and enjoyment out of it. It's only now that I look back that I realize that I think inadvertently it was probably my way of saying I'm going to make sure that I never get overlooked in this world and that I'm going to develop the skills that I need to ensure that I have this very powerful sense of empowerment and presence in the world to probably or to counteract my very small stature. It has been a bit of a journey, yes.
Leanne: I like hearing that it's been a bit of a journey in that I guess that reassures me because when you hear someone like you speak, you think, "Wow, how do they do that? Is it just a natural thing that they've got? If so, I've got no chance," but to hear that you've actually really invested a lot of time, a lot effort, a lot of energy, a lot of dollars to get where you are, I think it shows that it's a skill that can be taught.
Irena: Absolutely, it can be. Absolutely. I actually believe anything can be taught. I think all it takes is a determination to want it enough. I talk these days a lot about growth mindset. If you're not good at something, you can get good at it if you have enough desire and will and determination and preparedness to put the time and effort into developing it. Now that said, of course, I'm never going to be a marathon runner or a sprinter or a basketball player obviously. We have to be sensible about how we're approaching this.
I don't believe people when they say things like are I'm just not creative, or I don't have it in me to be able to do something like that or that's beyond my reach because it's not within my skill set. I think well if you want it bad enough, you can make it your skill set. If you want it bad enough, you will pursue it in a way that you become quite single-minded about it. I'm a great believer that we can all be entrepreneurial, we can all be creative, we can all be innovative, we've all got leadership skills within us that can be developed and liberated and used in whatever way we want to if we have the will.
Leanne: Yes, I agree with you. I really like that approach and I think that's why we are both in this learning and development industry because we both really believe that.
Irena: Absolutely.
Leanne: I liked that you also mentioned that phrase. I hear an awful lot that phrase, "I'm not creative," and I don't really know if I figured out a response to that. I do challenge people when they say that, and I use questions to find out things that they've done in the past which-- I think a lot of people think creativity is all about being theatrical or being musical or being an artist. I try to dismiss that. What is your response when people say to you that they're not creative?
Irena: Well, I absolutely agree with you that there is this myth around the notion of what is creativity. When people say, "I'm not creative," what they really mean or what they in their head are saying is I can't paint, I don't play a musical instrument, I'm not a composer, I'm not going to write the next Harry Potter series that's going to take the world by storm. They've got this notion that creativity is exclusively belonging to the world of artistry of some way. Whereas, in fact, having spent seven years researching creative problem solving, I can say quite unequivocally that we are all capable of creativity.
In relation to the question that you ask me, what would I say to someone who says they're not creative, I'll say well have you recently had to solve a problem way you didn't actually know what the answer was when you started, did it require you to do some poking and prodding and experimentation and lateral thinking in order to solve that problem? Invariably, people say yes because they don't think of creativity as being an everyday activity. Most of the time, most people have to deal with problems in the workplace which are not strictly step by step by step by step.
They've got to think around them, they've got to bring some more information into the problem space, or they've got to maybe make some associations, some leaps of thought in order to get the best outcome and that is creativity. That is creative thinking. That is creative problem-solving. Whenever we come up against an unfamiliar situation and we've got to come up with a good response to it, we are in fact being creative. I'm on this mission to dispel this association of creativity and artistry. Of course, artistry is the manifestation of creativity but it's just one kind. People in the workplace, they might come up with a really clever way of dealing with a difficult colleague. That is, in fact, a creative response.
They might come up with an out of the box way of solving a problem for a customer, that is a creative response. When you begin to help people to see how in fact they are using creativity on a day by day basis, then it's like the curtains go up, the veil lifts and they can see that they are in fact are very creative. I had someone in one of my workshops a while ago who said I'm not creative and then we happened to be chatting during the course of the workshop. He was telling me about how he had built this generator in his backyard to light his shed and his kids' playhouse and the back garden. He built it out of bits and pieces that he had lying around in his shed.
I said, "Are you seriously telling me-- You just said to me like half an hour ago I'm not creative and now you're telling me about how you've built this Jolly generator that actually works just out of spare parts in your shed." He went, "Oh, you mean that's creativity?" I said, "Yes, you didn't have a map, you didn't have a plan, you didn't have a set of instructions, you kind of figured it out as you went along. You made decisions on a minute by minute basis about what would be a good next step, and you picked up another part and go, yes, this will fit in here and all sorts of really interesting things."
I said that's creativity. It's about being able to put ideas and even physical things together in ways that didn't exist before and to come up with new solutions. People often have a real aha moment when we talk about things like that.
Leanne: Look, I love that you are there out busting the myth and I'm here to support you through every conversation and hopefully our listeners can also-- When I hear people say that they've got a great response so thanks so much for sharing that and that story, man, that guy is super creative.
Irena: Absolutely. It actually drives me nuts when people who are, genuinely, actually are really creative and just don't see it. It's like kind of one of those things, like the nails on the chalkboard. That's why I'm on a mission, I am on a quest, I'm just determined to help people appreciate their creativity and value it for themselves.
Leanne: I agree, and I think it's also on those myths that's tied up with the whole to be a leader, you need to be a manager as well. There's a few myths just floating around with people nowadays. It's good that we've got people like you on the warpath.
Irena: Warpath, I love it, [crosstalk] that one. Sorry, keep going.
Leanne: Quite violent. Just when you were talking about creativity, I could tell that the pace in your voice is really, you spoke about a passion, lot of energy. I think it's one thing that you also have that comes across clear in your video, it's true is your energy. Delivering workshops I believe you need a lot of energy to do it and at the end of the day, it can be pretty exhausting. Two- day workshop, three days, you're off to India next week, how do you get the energy to last the day, the half day, the five days and with all the travel and everything else how do you cope with that?
Irena: That's a good question because I have to confess to you sometimes I am exhausted. Genuinely exhausted. I don't know what it is, Leanne. Even if I'm exhausted, when I step into that space where I'm delivering training, I'm delivering a keynote, when I step into that environment, that context because I'm doing what I know I'm meant to be doing, this is my passion, this is what gives me energy, then it sustains me. I must confess to you that sometimes I do that and then I'll fall in the [unintelligible 00:30:16] probably not what you were expecting to hear. Then I just have to rest for a little bit, recharge my batteries.
I'm an introvert, so it's really important for me, especially when we're in busy stretches, that I do get my alone time where I can sit and reflect and write in my journal and in my- I have a Moleskin where I put all of my new ideas and my thoughts. I develop my IP and my content and my models, the things that will then feed into my next book, et cetera. That then replenishes my spirit. As long as I can have times like that where I can recharge, then I keep my batteries going that point as well.
Leanne: No, I think that point just demonstrates that you are human because I feel the same. You're providing a lot of energy for the people in the room and at the end of the day, it's like, "Wow, I just had no time for myself." Often at breaks, people are up talking to our us, and sometimes I feel like it's a holiday just getting back to my desk and my email.
Irena: Yes. I don't think I'd ever go that far. Email is never under that banner, but I know what you mean. I know what you mean. Just sort of you have that moment of solitude. I think it's important that everyone finds what their own personal stride is around that. For some people, it might be that they come and sit at their desk and they do some quiet work. For others, it might be that they go for a long walk and then they're alone with their thoughts for a while. Other people meditate at lunchtime so that they can recharge their batteries that way. I often find that I'm very creative first thing in the morning, so I try to make sure that I have that space in the morning.
I always have my notebook next to me. If I read something, it'll often spark some thinking and then I can do my drawings or my models in my notebook, that replenishes me. I think it's really important for people to find what works for them and it's not the same for everyone. It's definitely not a one size fits all. People need to find how they recharge their batteries and then make sure that they do that on a regular basis so that they can keep their mojo going.
Leanne: I agree, and I like that you also document your ideas by writing things down. I've got my notes on my iPhone that I just refer to all the time. There's so many random notes in there that I think I need a place where I store them all.
Irena: It's a good idea. I actually have a series of different notebooks, so I don't mix my pure thought leadership stuff with mundane operational stuff. It depends on what kind of thinking I'm documenting, as to which notebook I'll write in.
Leanne: Nice. You must have a really big handbag.
[laughter]
Leanne: Something else you need to invest in.
Irena: I do, as a matter of fact, and it's very heavy.
Leanne: Excellent. We got lots of listeners from different areas, they could be engineers, accountants, a lot of HR people that listen to the show because they have been asked to deliver workshops. What would be your advice for someone that's starting out their facilitation career?
Irena: There's a very big difference between knowing something yourself and being able to do it inside your head, and explaining it to other people so that they, not only get it but want it. Number one thing, this is a general rule for anyone starting in a new field, do lots of it. Like just literally do lots and lots and lots and lots of it. Facilitate as much as possible and then build into every cycle opportunity for reflection so that you can figure out what did and didn't work so that you engage in that constant cycle of action learning. That way, you don't go into the next opportunity for facilitation without doing something better, without having learned something from the previous experience.
That means people build their skills incrementally over a period of time, and they'll find that they become better simply because they're practicing it, and they also practicing mindfulness in the way that they're asking themselves constantly, what did and didn't work. That's one aspect. Something else that is very useful for subject matter experts stepping into teaching or facilitation or training role is to come to the experience looking at whatever it is that they are presenting through the eyes of the learner, not through the eyes of the expert. People who are experts have got very advanced and what from the psychology literature is often referred to as highly chunked schemers.
In other words, the schemers, their mental models are extremely sophisticated because they've been built up over time. That's what allows them to make decisions quickly and be able to see patterns quickly and be able to manipulate larger chunks of information, et cetera, effortlessly within their minds. Now, novices and people who they are teaching, don't have the benefit of that experience.
Experts can sometimes forget that. It becomes really difficult to break things down into its constituent parts and uncouple those concepts that have melded into one overarching abstract way of knowing and being able to articulate it so that someone who doesn't have that level of sophistication in their understanding can get their head around it quickly. One of the best ways of doing that is saying, "Okay, what does this look like from the perspective of my learner, not from the perspective of me, who's the expert?" That's something else that they can do. Then I'm a great believer in facilitators just getting people to do stuff, do stuff.
As much as possible, get people actively involved in something, whether it's building something, whether it's that they've got to reproduce something, whether they've got to roleplay something, whether they've got to answer questions, whether they going to then take on board a piece of information and then teach it to someone else as if they were the expert, how would they use the words to then explain it to their colleague? There's lots of activities that can be done in pairs and in small groups that facilitate all of that understanding.
When people actually have the opportunity to articulate their learning, then it's much more likely to stick, it's much more likely to become clearer for them as well as learners and the facilitator's job actually becomes easier. I would say that's the other thing. Make sure that people get to do things as well.
Leanne: I'm definitely a firm believer in doing things. You're right, it does make it easier for the facilitator but there's also that they need to feel comfortable, letting go and let the group make the concepts their own as well.
Irena: Yes, that's a really good point actually. One of the mistakes that novice facilitators can make is thinking that they need to control everything in the room. They've got to control it all, otherwise, oh, what if it goes off the rails? What if someone asks a question, and we don't know how to deal with it? Or what if things don't work out the way they're supposed to? Am I going to look like I've let people down, that my expertise is lacking? All of those sorts of questions are fairly typical for people who are newly emerging in a field. The best thing to do under those circumstances is to just relax, let go, relinquish control and let everyone be part of the learning process.
If something happens, and the facilitator genuinely has no idea what just happened, just admit it. What's the worst that's going to happen? I don't know the answer to that. Let's find out together. I don't know what will happen if you mix those two things together now, provided you're not mixing nitroglycerin with something else. I think learners really appreciate seeing their teachers and their trainers and instructors go through a learning process as well. It would be a very arrogant trainer or instructor or teacher who would go, "Well, no, look, I really know everything." If that's the case, I think that this person has got no business being in that role because we never stop learning.
The most important characteristic of anyone who's a dedicated educator is that they recognize that they've got so much more education to acquire and that they've got so much more learning that is going to be part of their future. That's what I always look for in people.
Leanne: That's incredible advice to end on. Irena, we've spoken about so much just inside the 40 minutes we've had together: intrapreneurship, the I'm not creative statement we hear a lot, your experience pivoting from a teacher into adult education and our creativity, energy levels, all of it. If people want to get in contact with you and find out more about what you do, where can they find you?
Irena: I'm Dr. Irena Yashin-Shaw. If you Google something that looks vaguely like that, you'll say me. My website is www.D-R-I-R-E-N-A-Y-A-S-H-I-N-S-H-A-W.com, or they can email me on irena@drirenayashinshaw.com, or they can put in anything into Google that looks vaguely like that and they'll find me. I think I'm the only one around so you’re not going to get mixed up with 10 Irena Yashin-Shaws. Leanne, just before we do close off, do you mind if I just give a little bit of a plug for the Australian Intrapreneurs Summit that I'm hosting next year?
Leanne: Absolutely, go for it. It is in Brisbane, yes, please tell everyone about it.
Irena: Thank you. I'm just so excited about this event. We have got people speaking from lots of different sectors. Intrapreneurialism is alive and well in all sectors, not just within the business sector or the large corporate sector from which we have got speakers but also within education, within not for profit, within the indigenous community, within academia. We've got absolutely amazing speakers who will be bringing a different perspective about and to intrapreneurialism during the summit. If they go to my website, if anyone is interested in it, if you go to my website and go to events, you will find that there's information about the summit there, or you can just go www.australianintrapreneurssummit.com.au but that's quite a mouthful.
You've got to make sure you spell intrapreneurs summit properly. I would love to extend an invitation to the people who are part of your network and listening to this podcast. It's at the Brisbane Convention Center on the 14th of March 2019 and it's going to be an absolutely spectacular event. It is the first of its kind, so it is the inaugural intrapreneurs' summit in Australia. Hopefully, there will be many more. I look forward to maybe meeting some of the people in your network at that event, please come and say hello.
Leanne: 100% yes. That was a beautiful plug and we definitely need intrapreneurs in every industry. Well done you and congratulations on being so brave and starting your first conference. That's incredible and I'd love to be there. I’ve already sent it off to some friends and colleagues as well, but I will promote that and have a link to your website as well as the conference website on the show notes after this episode. Thank you so much.
Irena: Thank you, Leanne. I really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you and congratulations on the fantastic work that you are doing with this as well.
Leanne: Thank you so much.