First Time Facilitator podcast transcript
This is the transcript of my conversation with Steph Clarke. Alternatively, you can listen to my First Time Facilitator conversation with Steph.
Leanne: Steph welcome to the show.
Steph: Thank you and hi.
Leanne: Hi, now Steph you've started your life as an accountant and I love in your biography that you say that you realized you enjoy developing others more than deciphering technical accounting standards, and I think a lot of our facilitators, you're the first accountant that's made the pivot on the show, but I'm sure not the first accountant in the world that's done it.
Steph: I know a few.
Leanne: I actually know a few too. It seems that accountants turn into L&D people later on in their careers. How did you manage that pivot and what really drove you to L&D?
Steph: I can't really think about what the exact moment was that I thought actually L&D is for me, but I remember going on training courses when I was a young accountant and feeling like actually I wanted to be at the front of the room, developing content and delivering the stuff rather than sitting there having it taught to me and maybe that's a slight on some of the people who are delivering incredibly dry accounting topics and thinking, "Maybe I could be a bit more creative with some of this."
Not that I feel like necessarily-- Actually, okay, I think sometimes that I could do a better job, but sometimes just thinking surely this could come to life a lot more than it currently is and be done in a different way and liking the idea of that challenge.
Leanne: Yes, that's exactly what drove me as well I think. You can't see Steph because you're listening in, but you're your eyes have just lit up talking about that passion that you have for being in front of the room. I thought it was something that you've been comfortable with being at the front?
Steph: Well, I remember the first few times I did it and despite me thinking like, "Yes that's what I want to do," just being terrified but I think a lot of that was less about being at the front of the room but it was the pretty bit more of the judgment of the people there and thinking, "This is what I really want to do, this matters and actually feeling like I wanted to do a good job," not that I didn't feel like I wanted to do a good job when I was doing the accounting stuff because I did, but it was more around wanting to prove that I was good enough to do this and almost justify that being my next career choice which is a bit scary.
Leanne: It's like that impostor syndrome that comes through and funny accounting it's a job where you're behind a computer and it's quiet, no one really sees it whereas facilitating is very public so everyone can have an opinion on it. Is that what you found when you made that transition as well?
Steph: A little bit and I think there's really so feeling like because I went into it when I was quite junior relatively speaking that I didn't have enough technical knowledge to justify teaching, but I think there's there's definitely old adage of those who can't teach so I have rode that way everything for a few years of my accounting training life. I think actually one of the things I noticed within even six months of doing the training because first couple of years, this is context, I did both so I did training and I did accounting and just switch between the two at different times of the year. What I found was I was much better and I understood the concepts much more deeply after I'd done the training.
Once I'd been thinking about putting in to different perspectives and doing it in different ways and explaining it to others, I understood it so much better than I did when I was just doing it and having it explained to me once or twice and then having to get on with it.
Leanne: When you were sitting in that room and you were looking at the facilities at the front and going, "Gosh this is dry what are they doing?" What then did you think that would be a good strategy for you to get engagement and how did you start getting the skills to engage your audiences?
Steph: At first I didn't, at first I sucked because I just did what everyone else did because that was the script and I just needed to get over the initial fears and then I thought, "Hang on, if I want to do this a bit differently and if I want to not have people looking like they'd rather be anywhere else in the room rather than in the room I need to mix it up." I think initially and I still use this technique is very much around a bit of self-discovery so actually giving different topics for people to research in the same way as they would when they're at work because someone's not always stood at the front of the room in the audit room or in the office telling you what to do.
Actually giving people little projects to research using the resources that they're going to have to use every day to research the technical topics anyway and letting them then teach back. It practices some multiple different skills, gets a bit of peer learning in there, gets a bit of social learning in there, gets a bit of discovery and people then own it a bit more because they've actually done the research rather than being quite passive. Just trying to make learning a bit more active rather than passive.
Leanne: Yes, hear, hear. All the time I think we see a lot of talking and people are lecturing and then it's just listening and I think who actually does learn that way and like you said, when I just sit there in our cubicles learning by people talking at us it's all about getting involved and having that conversation, I 100% agree. I want to move on to your attraction towards leadership and that's something a skill that you love to teach now. What was it about leadership that attracted you that's all these topics going around communication, presentation skills, why leadership?
Steph: I think leadership jumped out because I see it and this isn't necessarily relative just in my industry, but I just see it done badly so often and when I talk to people, when I have conversations with friends, with family, the thing that always sucks out of their work is their leadership or lack thereof sometimes depending on the the context. I think because there's so many problems to solve, I find I quite like it because it's quite meaty. There's always going to be work because clearly [laughs] it's quite future-proof as a career I think.
I like that it is a bit broad, but you can go quite deep into different areas of it. For me, the areas that I quite like to focus on are two, one is emerging leaders so those who have made that transition particularly from technical competencies such as accounting because yes, that's my path as well. Those who've made that transition from technical roles through to leadership or management roles and a bit like, "Oh what do I do and who are these weird people that I now need to lead and where do I even start? I've got this other work to do I don't have time for them," and just trying to navigate that to build the sustainable leadership.
Then secondly teams, actually working with teams at different levels not necessarily just new leaders that can be quite senior executive teams and leadership teams to help them be more effective. Actually building back some of the habits that they might need to help them to be be more effective as a team. Just to some of those to get a bit unstuck because some of those teams they've been operating together a while or they've had new people in and they're a bit like, "Oh we need to start again but we're not really sure how because it's been a long time since we've had to do that."
Leanne: Like you said the very broad groups, with the emerging leaders that you focus on, what do you think is the biggest struggle for someone that's stepping into a leadership role?
Steph: It is a few things and I think a largely it comes down to having even an idea of your identity as a leader, what do you actually want to be known for? Who do you want to be as a leader? What do you want your team to say about you, think about you in three months, six months, twelve months time when they're not your team anymore? I think a lot of people are promoted into those ranks not because of their leadership skills, but because of their technical skills so that is what they identify with. It's what they've been rewarded for, it's what they've been recognized for, it's what they think and know that they are good at and they are which is great, but those things are not going to make you a great leader.
It's being able to help them identify what they want to be as a leader and for a lot of people, again depending on industry that's quite an alien concept because it's quite fluffy, it's ambiguous, it's a bit airy-fairy whatever. They've not really thought about themselves in that way and I suppose a lot of them or not a lot of them but a number of them don't necessarily even want to be a leader.
A leader of others necessary or a manager of others. They want to just do the work that they are good at and get on with it. Helping them see how they can bring their strengths from their technical areas into leading others and whether that's being a technical expert and being a technical leader, but still having some of those qualities of great leadership as well.
Leanne: I think about leadership all the time, it's something that I work with at my organization and everything that you've said there is I think echoed in a lot of organizations right now so you're right. You'll never be out of a job. It's funny with leadership I think with all leaders and I've had conversations with my mates around the barbecue as well in all different industries and there is that common denominator of, "My leader doesn't this or this I can't delegate, they don't speak well." I think a leader these days there's a lot of different hats to wear.
They've got to champion diversity initiatives, they've got a champion safety, environment standards. It can seem really tough I guess it's a bit maybe but it might seem we are asking too much for a leader or we are trying to create a type of a unicorn perhaps. What do you think about that? Do you think there's a lot of crazy expectations on leaders or what should someone do?
Steph: There really is, and I think it's not even just expectations, but the wash of initiatives that we throw at leaders or throw organizations. Yes, from really senior to the more junior leaders and managers is just not fair because we are not setting them up right or well or fairly to really succeed because they are trying to do everything, you just do nothing. I think there is a fundamental issue in, I don't want to say workload necessarily, but that's what it all comes down to because it's so broad.
Not always, we are trying it and we are expecting the same thing from everyone. [unintelligible 00:09:56 baseline of what we do need to expect around things like safety particularly if you're in the extractions in the industry or things like that. Clearly there's a baseline, that's not a leadership thing that's an everyone thing, but when we come to the leaders, we do need to think about maybe differentiating slightly more and thinking about what strengths and what are people going to be great at bringing to the organization and fostering or championing in the organization maybe expecting less of everyone to do everything.
Leanne: Yes and that's what the whole strengths based approach really is all about, not everyone needs to be a champion diversity, not everyone needs to be all about the environment, not everyone needs to deliver inspirational speeches at morning teas.
Steph: Absolutely yes.
Leanne: Share that around. Now you're talking about an emerging leaders and you said that one critical thing is to know yourself and what your legacy is or how people perceive you in three, six months. That leads me back into the model that you developed your framework, do you want to explain that to our listeners and how you developed that I think it's really great.
Steph: Thanks yes so my trifecta or Venn diagram for leadership is know your stuff know yourself, know your team because when I think about all the challenges and all the different skills and behaviors you need as a leader it really does boil down to those three things and by team of course you can make that broader and think about your stakeholders, your organization, your customers et cetera because there is no others.
Maybe in time that will evolve to know others rather than know your team, but if we start with know your team I think particularly for emerging leaders that's a good starting point and then you can take those behaviors and thinking a bit broader. I think the way I came up with it was really just synthesizing most of the different challenges I hear and also the strengths I hear from people as well. When people are great what is it they're great at and it's usually something that helps with all three of those if not two, to three of those areas.
When I think about a lot of the skills and behaviors for things like delegation, things like communication, again you're good at those because you know yourself you know your staff, you know your team.
Leanne: When you would talk about synthesizing the ideas, did you just sit down with a stack of post-it notes and start drawing them out and categorizing them what was your process?
Steph: It was literally a shower idea.
Leanne: I'd say that.
Steph: I'm sorry. There was no process. It had been festering away in my brain and literally saying to me one day and I don't know if I was actually in the shower, but I was doing something really inane like washing up or in the shower or something when those moments come to you and that was. I went and scribbled it down and thought, "I could work with that." What I tend to do then is leave it for a bit in front of me on my desk or something on a post-it note or a scrap of paper and then just keep going back to it and just testing, does that fit within that and does this fit within that? Will with this work if I was using it in this situation and then just testing it on some courses and testing it on LinkedIn and in my newsletter and stuff like that in some posts just to see how it landed if people came back were like, "That is why don't-- I was going to say something a bit rude - and that is terrible." What rating this podcast is sorry.
Leanne: We've had a few people say explicit words on it. I think when talking about those situations they've been in workshops so don't need to censor it. The reason I ask that is I think as facilitators we tend to use a lot of of course leadership theory and models off from reviewed articles and a lot of stuff but it is nice to have our own IP and think about what's our own opinion is on certain things and how we see the links. I think that's a value that we can bring as facilitators so I guess the tip there for first-time facilitators is to have more frequent showers.
Steph: I think so, yes.
Leanne: Also, I think what you said is that you had this model, you let it sit there, you kept reflecting on it and coming back to it from time to time and then testing it which is key.
Steph: Yes, and also just refining it and being open because I think it's really tempting and I definitely fell into this with this model and a couple of others that I've worked on use more in specific courses and things as you get really attached to it you're like, "I've had this idea and I might never have it again and this is going to be it." Then you have to be okay with with refining it or taking feedback or it not working anymore or it becoming a bit outdated. Yes, it's absolutely great to have your own IP and really working on that and I spend a bit of time thinking about letting the ego go and knowing that that IP might not be great forever.
Once you might have that Eureka moment in the shower and think, "Yes, this is the best thing since something by Covey," you need to take a step back and think and be okay when it doesn't work.
Leanne: That's hard sometimes when you're all so attached. I was talking to a really great leader at my business and he said, "When you put an idea at the table, you've got to be prepared to step back and let the criticism come in and let the feedback flow and just don't be attached to it." I thought that was really great advice. You mentioned Covey there and growing up for me his book Seven Habits was one of my favorite books growing up and still is. Are there any books that have really impacted you professionally I guess both in your facilitation sense but as the way that you I guess live and run your life.
Steph: I like how you say growing up like you're like a 10 year old reading Seven Habits [unintelligible 00:15:05]. [laughs]
Leanne: Well his son Sean Covey he had Seven habits of highly effective teens so I did [crosstalk] Yes, actually very. I didn't read the Stephens version until I was a bit older, but yes Sean's version same same but just the language is written in a really- [crosstalk]
Steph: Yes, nice overachieving I love it Leanne.
Leanne: It was a Christmas present [unintelligible 00:15:33]
Steph: The books and actually there's one I've read really recently and I keep waxing lyrical about it on LinkedIn and on some blog pop ask was have done is The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker. I think as a facilitator it's quite a new book, I think it actually came out early this year but as a facilitator it's really changed the way I think about why we get people together and not just change the way I think, but really put some language for me around some of the uneasiness I have sometimes when some groups come together and some of the language around why I don't feel that something's are useful or helpful.
She just really helped to go and this is why I'm like, "Ah this is why." It's always just been like a bit of a weird feeling and I've not been able to really articulate, for example, it's a bad structure now I realized so it's a bit of an example. When you've got a team together and there's people in the room that shouldn't be in the room for the conversations they're having, and you know that it's not quite working but you don't really know why, but you do know why because it's those one or two or three people. What this book really does is it almost gives you the confidence to go back to whoever the stake holder is and say, "Let's go through the list and actually talk about why each person is there and actually have them articulate. Yes well we've had to invite that person because of some legacy thing or we invited this person, we have to invite that person."
Whatever that usually political reason is and then just being able to challenge them and say, " If this is what we're trying to achieve and actually having a really clear purpose on what is it, why are we bringing this particular group together, is having these one or two or three people there. Is that going to help us get closer to or further from our goal, our objective, our mission? Using that then as the catalyst to uninvite some of those people which can be controversial and a bit challenging, but using that purpose of why we gather and how we're bringing and why we're bringing people together to then challenge who's there, why we're there, where we meet as well.
I think as a facilitator we just rock up at the office or at the conference venue or whatever it is and sometimes as facilitators we're maybe coming in for a session as part of a bigger event, so we don't have the luxury of saying, "Have you thought about why you're in this place," and they're like, "No we just booked it, we use every year." We can't always have that level of control, but when we do it was a great reminder to think about what does this symbolize? What does this represent? Is this the best environment for us to have this particular conversation.
For example if we want to talk about the future of the company is sitting in the company's mahogany panel boardroom with pictures of all the old presidents and chair people and all the rest is that really getting us in the mindset of the future of this company? Maybe not.
Leanne: Maybe not, no. That's really interesting because I've actually looked at participant lists and gone I'm actually physically scratching my head and I do ask the question but it wasn't in the way where it referred back to the purpose or saying is it bringing us closer to the purpose and to continue iterating that, I wasn't too sure how to challenge it or if it even was my place as a facilitator because I'm trying to serve you if you think that's the best move maybe that's the best move, but I think if we're there to drive the best outcomes we need to start taking accountability and ownership of who is in the room and what's the environment like.
Steph: Yes, and I think it's a great point you raised Leanne because as a facilitator as any subject matter expert whether it's of your the skill as a facilitator or the subject matter of the content you're there to have an opinion, you are there to be the expert so if you are the facilitator that is exactly the kind of thing that we should be having an opinion on challenging our clients or our organizations other internal or external clients on because we're there to help them get the outcome not just to walk them through a process or walking through a conversation. That's part of it, but there is a much, much bigger environment and ecosystem that we are part of them that we can control to get that outcome.
Leanne: That's how we start adding more value as facilitators.
Steph: Absolutely.
Leanne: Talking about conference locations and venues, have you presented at any X Factor or participated in any great conference locations?
Steph: I was think about this because you had this on I think it was, I can't remember if it was Facebook or LinkedIn or Instagram one of the social media.
Leanne: It was Instagram.
Steph: You had some bland picture and I was really racking my brain I think unfortunately having delivered a lot of accounting training, the locations aren't always super imaginative so a lot of hotels have very boring walls and windowless rooms and things like that. I've been to some really cool locations. I've been around the world to deliver different training when I was basically [unintelligible 00:20:35] I've been to Singapore to, a couple of times in Singapore, Shanghai so not just places beginning there, Hong Kong all around Australia, quite a few places in Europe so Germany, the Netherlands, US.
I've been really lucky to travel a lot with my facilitation, but most of those in fairly uninspiring offices and locations unfortunately.
Leanne: I should just get rid of any windowless room. It should just be [crosstalk]
Steph: I know, a few nice country clubs and golf clubs in the UK because that was often our conference venue were in those locations, you drove out to the country and because they are usually bit bigger as well but sadly nothing super loud. We've had some cool places where there was footballers or some kind of celebrity staying in the same place, some of the participants got really excited and just following let's try and find if they could get spotted and selfies with whichever footballer was there.
Leanne: That sounds like you didn't need to do any kind of energizer if you've got celebrities- [crosstalk]
Steph: Exactly, yes.
Leanne: We've had great experiences because you've worked for this global company. Now you're also a side hustle, some people don't like the word side hustle but you've got a side project that's happening and I've got to say that I love your branding. In your email signature you've got these really cool, your icon of red glasses. Can you talk us through how you started branding yourself and figure out your brand story and all that for facilitators that are trying to make that transition from corporate to running their own show.
Leanne: Yes, and I think for me it was a bit of a turmoil in trying to pin down what my area was going to be because as a bit of someone who's bit of a jack-of-all-trades and likes to have fingers in. The thing for me for about three or four months just know you feel a bit sick just thinking about niching or niching if you're American, niching because it was just a lot of it. That idea of cutting off different options and when I realized that actually no I'm not cutting off different options, I'm actually just specializing or focusing on one or two for now and in a year, two years, three years whenever I can always transition because I'll have a client base and I'll have all these different contacts.
If I want to then focus a bit more on presentation skills which is another thing I really love to teach but didn't want to necessarily do right now, well then it's quite an easy transition because it's, "We've seen Steph present, she does leadership stuff or she's a great presenter. Great yes, she would be great if you get her to do some presentation." Actually thinking about the evolution of a life-cycle of the business rather than just what I'm doing for the next three, six nine, twelve months. That was the first hurdle was to get over my innate fear of boredom and a lack of variety which was a bit of a problem.
Psychologist please apply within and then thinking about the other brand and what I wanted to building a website and all those kind of things. At first for starter we are just writing some blogs and just thinking about getting a voice and building the brand voice and the brand opinion and what topics I wanted to talk about and which ones flowed a bit easier than others and where I wanted to put a bit of a stamp and then from there, I thought we need some kind of logo and looking at different things. Then the big decision was do I brand without going into the back end of the business too much but do I brand ? Do I actually start a business and incorporation or do I go more sole trader and with my own name?
Looking at both the pros and cons of both and really thinking for this point in what I'm doing I want to be Steph Clarke and that's the brand to be rather than necessarily at the moment a business or a company name. That was the other thing to determine as well and obviously there's questions around, do you want to go and hire people immediately and have people working for you or franchise, in which case maybe go down the business and having a brand name otherwise if it's going to be you flying solo for a while maybe that's your name.
Then the glasses happened again I don't know if it was quite a shower idea and I think it was even my boyfriend, I'm sure he would take credit for it anyway, when I was thinking about what is it that makes me me and I think I had my glass on the time and so a bit of a slightly statement piece and I was looking at different icons because I really love iconography and rather than more detailed images.
Yes, I think at a similar time we went, "Oh, what about my glasses?" Then got a little icon of one just in the icon catalog and then made it red and I was like, "Yes, this could work." What I did, as I went then went onto Fiverr and just asked someone to sent a photo of my glasses and I was like make this into an icon in this color red and there we were.
Leanne: So clever, so clever. I like that you really thought about your life cycle of your business because I know in Australia a lot of people don't think of it until I have to get registered and I'm like, "I'm I still a trader? I'm I a business, what am I?" They wait for the governance to apply before actually proactively thinking where is this business going in the future. It's interesting you talked about specializing as well and just starting somewhere, getting clients and then expanding. I think that's a really nice approach. What are you up to now? What kind of projects and courses and workshops?
Steph: I have just this weekend hit submit on my first Udemy course it's going to be very exciting. I'm going to be using that really as a bit of a supplement to other things so it's my delegate or die course which I run. I have run classroom versions for and now it's going to [unintelligible 00:26:19].
Leanne: Cool name.
Steph: Thanks. Funny I recorded it all and I did like a promo video and all the rest and delegate or dialect, I just thought, "I hope they don't throw that away," because you have to submit it to be reviewed first. I thought if they come back and don't like that title I didn't want them to get a D because I'm going to start everything all over again and that would make me want to die, probably.
Leanne: You could just delegate that to someone else.
Steph: Exactly, delegate that yes, exactly. Luckily I looked on Udemy and there's another one that's called diplomatic or die or something like that so I was like, "Okay cool it's obviously okay so this is good." Anyway, that's one of the things that's going to be launched in the next, hopefully next week or so provided their review gets uploaded and submitted okay. That's very exciting and then outside of that I'm working on something called the New Leader 12 Week Success Planner which is going to be a combination of course of coaching and some other resources too some of which are still in in the pipeline so I can't talk too much about them at the moment in case it will fall through, but you've got some quite exciting things to actually help our new leaders take that first 12 weeks and think about what habits.
It's all based around the habit of leadership and the habits that you can be building in a sustainable way to actually help you as a new leader. When I say new leader it doesn't have to be someone who's day one, it could be you've been a leader or a manager for a little while and you're just like, "I've never really honed these skills and I need to actually think about refreshing or learning a bit more about my leadership style and skills et cetera." It's really helping them in quite a guided way to become better leaders and build the sustainable habits they need to lead.
There's content for that and there's going to be some mixture of online stuffs and coaching packages with me to actually help guide through that 12-week process and some classroom based sessions too. There's going to be a half-day version in November in Melbourne and looking at hopefully one in Brisbane as well but working on some dates for that by hopefully end of October.
Leanne: Wow, you must be so busy.
Steph: Yes, it's stuff that gives me this especially doing it on the side as well as I work four days in my main hustle and then the rest of the weekend well whilst I have one full day. Also I'm delivering for clients in some of that time as well so it really is evenings, weekends, [unintelligible 00:28:46] in between the two, but it's fun and it's creative. I think the creative side there's some bits that suck my soul as well when I'm filling in a spreadsheet with my expenses for that week or whatever with my general ledger mainly because that reminds me of accounting probably, but when something goes wrong in my website and I'm just like, "Oh God why is this so terrible?"
At the same time the creative freedom and I think just the possibility of where this could go and where the clients I can help and the people I can work with yeah it's really exciting.
Leanne: I hear you, I'm on a nine-day fortnight as well and that one day it's just so precious and you can't afford to be tired or sleeping, you've really got to ramp it up but then also use those after hours and it's amazing how much time you do find in a week and what you can get done. I think it's not tiring because like you say you get to be creative and making your own decisions and it's it's really fun. I really love-
Steph: I was just going to say actually that's just the point you made there around it's amazing how much time you do have an evening actually that's what started my business. It was just a bit of boredom because I exercise in the mornings, in the evenings I was making dinner and then just sitting and festering and I felt like my brain was disappearing. This was probably a year after moving to Australia, so yes there is a lot of other stuff going on, you're getting settled and yet doing it. Going out and doing stuff and then after that I was like, "Okay, what I'm I going to do know? [laughs] What's next in my career?" Just thinking about that and that's really where this whole thing emerged from was I think again my boyfriend's going, "Well, why don't you start your own business?" I was like, "Yes, okay, I'll try that." [laughs]
Leanne: [unintelligible 00:30:29] your boyfriend but you started in business and got your branding organized too?
Steph: Yes, let's not give them too much credit.
Leanne: What I love about your online 12-week program for habits is that we often find that when clients approach the internal or external, it's just to around a workshop. They don't really think about the embedding strategies. Something like a 12-week program because it takes, I don't know what the theory that you've read says, but I'm of the mind about 30 days to create a habit consistently every day. That's how I developed my habit of exercising in the morning and then when you make it that habit, if you don't do it, you just feel terrible because it's so ingrained. I think that course is going to be so useful for anyone transitioning, so well done on putting that together. That's great. If people want to connect with you, talk to you, find out all your stuff. What's one place that we can send them where they can do that?
Steph: Yes, LinkedIn is probably my most visited social media site. LinkedIn is where I'm probably most active at the moment. Get on there and contact me there. I'm Steph-Clarke and I'm sure you put the link in the show notes. I've recently joined Twitter which I did it while I was on sick leave, which I think was probably a massive mistake because it's just the vortex but I think someone described to me two months is one long shot, said, "Okay, go away." [laughs] I'm also on Twitter and Instagram which is Steph_Clark__ because someone had the one underscore already and on Facebook too, just Steph Clarke leadership, is where you can find me.
Leanne: Perfect, all on everywhere.
Steph: All the socials but LinkedIn is definitely where I'm most active.
Leanne: Yes, your posts and videos are very active. Also if you want to look at great how branding is, Instagram is really cool too. Steph we'll link to all those in our show notes, but also it's been wonderful having you on a nice, bright and early on a Monday morning. Great way to start our way week.
I think so.
We've covered so many topics, from leadership to your career pivot, through to skills with facilitator just in space of 30 minutes. I'm sure our audience appreciates that a lot and all the best with everything. I can't wait to see how all your programs go and where you position your business in the future. It's really exciting.
Steph: Thanks Leanne and I'm looking forward because I'm sure we'll be collaborating at some point in the future.
Leanne: I am sure we will.
Steph: Mainly because I love coming to Brisbane, so just any excuse of that. [laughs]
Leanne: Hell yes. For those based overseas, Brisbane's very sunny and Melbourne's renowned for being quite chilly in winter.
Steph: It's all relative, so when your from the UK, I'm like, "This is cool," because Melbourne's not like that.
Leanne: Thanks again Steph.