First Time Facilitator podcast transcript with Adam Mustoe (Episode 16)
Leanne: Our guest today is on a mission to guide people to the place where they are gifted and called. He uses that assessment tool called Clifton strengths to help people find the intersection of their unique talents and rewarding work. He first discovered his strength in 2009 and it changed his life. He holds masters of divinity degree and is a Gallup certified strength coach. Welcome to the show, all the way from Kansas City Missouri. Adam Mustoe.
Adam Mustoe: Leanne, thank you so much, happy to be with you.
Leanne: It's great to have you on the show. Now, Adam, that's a very bold statement about finding your strength in 2009, changed your life. Can you tell us that story?
Adam: Sure. I was on staff at a church and we took the-- at the time it was called strength finder. There is a book called strength finder 2.0, and I was in my early 20s starting off being an employee for the first time, really being an adult for the first time and a lot of stuff was falling through the cracks. I kept thinking, ‘Oh, my gosh. I have such a long way to go.’ What Clifton Strengths helped me do was start with what's right, like take a look as opposed to the things I knew I was terrible at. It reminded me of the unique talents I do bring. Just starting from that place really changed everything for me.
I found out for instance that I have really low discipline, but I have really high strategy, and so I came up with a system or a strategy to be disciplined, in order to cover my gap. A lot of that just really changed how I operated as an employee, and just went from there. I had a huge impact on my life. Again that idea that, let's start with what's right and find people to partner with on maybe the places where I do have some gaps.
Leanne: Did you feel like you were kind of floundering around before you found the strength tool, and now you like, ah that all makes sense, now I can approach things more systematically, or I can build up my weaknesses somehow by complementing them with optimizing by strengths of yours.
Adam: Absolutely that's a great word is optimizing. Yes, what it did was it gave me a vocabulary for some things I already knew to be true, but could never really name. It made me be like, oh wait I'm not weird or I am weird in my own unique way, and so let me work with what I got as opposed to trying to work really hard to be not so bad at some things. I knew and everyone else knew that I just wasn't going to be good at.
It made it safe to admit those things and just to concentrate on the unique gifts you bring because that's going to be your greatest potential for growth. Is getting even better at the things you're already great at, and focusing there as opposed to trying really hard to be at best mediocre.
Leanne: That's absolutely why I love the tool as well, and I know found it probably about a year and a half ago when I was reading a book, it was called pivot by Jenny Blake, she used to run the coaching program over at Google. We thought of using it now organization as well. I think it takes a lot of people some time to think about it-- because a lot of times with development we focus on boosting those weaknesses. You said optimization is the key.
Adam: In the sense that we pretend those don't exist, by the way. That we don't have weaknesses, this is not where we start. Do you mind telling me the top five? Can I put you on the spot?
Leanne: Sure, we actually shared two of the top five.
Adam: I like it, tell me.
Leanne: My number one is ideation, maximizer, futuristic, activator, and positivity. So we share positivity and activator.
Adam: Very good, that's great. I love it you speak the language too.
Leanne: Am I normal?
Adam: You're totally normal.
Leanne: I love-- I think it's one in – you got one in 33 million chance of having the same combination of strengths with anyone else in the world.
Adam: That's right. There's a one in 278 thousand chance of meeting someone with the same top five in a different order. Last month I was working with a team from Detroit, and one of the guys was a strength squad of mine.
Leanne: No way.
Adam: Yes, we took a picture and I came home it was like Christmas day or something. It was it was a lot of fun. That's right.
Leanne: That's interesting, so you did the tool and you loved the tool. What actually prompted you to then get accreditation in it?
Adam: Sure. I was on staff at a church. I'm a pastor, that's what I do for my actual job. I had had a project in grad school to put together some type of development event. I thought okay, I have some interns I work with, and some senior is in high school and college-age people, and thought well, most people I know love learning about themselves. How can we leverage that and help people discover their gifts especially at that really opportune time, when in that kind of young adult range. We just had a blast and said, okay, there may be something to this.
We put together a class from my church and out of 600 people like 20% of them signed up for the class, and we thought, okay there's something here. Did that and then I came over to Kansas City? I used to live in St. Louis and offered it here and had a great response here. So, I put together some things like I guess one tip I would say to anybody wanted to get started, is if you're willing to work for free. Most people will open the door for you. I let some workshops for some teams in Kansas City, some people I trusted and I knew they would tell me if it was bad and went from there.
So, my goal is to use strength's to get to get beyond the walls of my church. So often the model for church is, hey you should come to us, or you need to come be like us. I just wanted to break out from the mindset of the church being like a fortress, and go into my community and bring them something of value that I thought really made a difference to me, whether or not they show up to my church or not. I've worked with my wife’s school and some other companies here in Kansas City. I wanted to get accredited so that I wasn't just the guy who likes this a lot, but rather the expertise you get and the commitment that it shows really was important to me to have that legitimacy. That's why I decided to go. And I'm so glad I did. It was amazing.
Leanne: Yes that’s how we sort of actually met. Was through there is a strength scallop community on Facebook. I love it; Were your positivity and activated strength, plus communication I think within a minute to posting you were straight on there. Messaging saying, hey I'm really came for this.
Adam: That’s right I said, ‘Hey, holla at me,’ I think was what I said. Am glad you did.
Leanne: I did. Let's talk about your top five. Ben how have they helped you and your career? Because as a pastor, you're up the front. You're actually leading sermons and you're leading groups all the time. Plus it this day brief as well. You've actually day brief for over 1,200, that's incredible. How are your top five strength? Firstly, what are they and how have they helped you in a public facing role?
Adam: Sure. My first one is strategic, and that means when I go to the grocery store I make my list in order of the different sections that I will encounter. First is produce, then meat, then cereal or whatever. My second one is positivity; I tend to be quick with praise. I was going to compliment your website but I didn't have the chance to do so. My wife we joke that that's not something she shares. When I ask her, hey how is such and such? Her default is, fine. But with positivity-- if you asked me how something went. My default is, it was good. Yes, it was good.
My third is communication, so I'm watching the clock to make sure I don't take up this entire time with just me blabbing. I love turning things into stories. I think that makes things memorable. Communication is also about trying to make information survive. How can I get things down to the absolute essential thing that needs to be communicated, and it makes me happy to make those type of things and memorable. My fourth one is activator. Activators can often be impatient, they like to get things going. I'm the guy at my office that thinks we have too many meetings. Everyone's very well aware of that. I'm a guy who's always like, all right, what are we going to do about this? Every sermon I give, oh gosh I hope there's an action step at the end, or also it is just a nice talk.
Then finally my last one is called woo. That stands for winning others over. Probably the most fun strength to say. That means I really don't go through life-- there's no strangers, they're just friends I haven't met yet. It's like I was excited to meet you and learn about you. My family will get annoyed because I will talk to the person at the grocery checkout or the waitress like 10 minutes after everyone's ready to leave. Those are my top five, and it's been really helpful to see how those kind of pair up and complement the staff of the people around me.
Just knowing those things about myself, like for instance, if I have a new initiative or a new project, I need to sit down and do some strategy time and to give myself ample time to think through the different options and to select the best path forward. Knowing that about myself is helpful, because I'm often reminded that not everybody is. I tend to have a bias for action which can make me helpful, but sometimes you need other folks to kind of pump the brakes so you don't fire away on maybe the wrong thing.
Leanne: Yes, that's probably something that I do and I can very much relate to your call about meetings. I do my best to try and get out of them or just try what's the outcome here, can drive it any other way rather than sitting down for an hour or so. I love your comment about Woo - a colleague of mine has Woo in her top five and she always says about these conversations she has with strangers on the train. It works for her and I always can’t think of anything worse. I love people but I'm not very good at, just talking to that stranger on the train.
Adam: If you stood by me on a plane you better look out.
Leanne: [laughs] The other thing about positivity, it was obviously now interactions because both of us just dropped a lot of exclamation marks. I know I have to - I have to hone it back when I know the people don't share the same positivity strength. You talked about your wife as well and her response to how's your day. Strengths we talk about it, some talk about it in organization context, but can use it outside of work in things like your relationships with people. Is it helpful then?
Adam: Yes. The applications are outstanding. In fact, last month, my [unintelligible 00:11:13] Sarah and my wife helps me. We call it, strengthening your marriage workshop and It was amazing. What we did was we actually got our-- you can pay extra money to find out all 34 of years, so we compared ours together and four of my top five are in her bottom five. It's just about pretty close to vice versa.
It was encouraging because it's not that we're not compatible, I like to think it was just being complimentary and that's what draws us to each other. She's different than me and I'm different than her and our gap would say that those differences are advantages they're not things that you should feel bad about that's what makes your relationship what it is.
You know that and complement each other. You have the applications for strengths are so wide so wide from the corporate world to the religious realm to like you said talking about in the context of a marriage. I use it with people that I'm going to do their wedding so they'll come in and for some kind of pre-marital counseling stuff and we'll just have absolute blast talking about strength, because they've known these things about each other but never had a name for it. All I do is facilitate, set the table and then just watch the light bulbs go off and it's so fun.
Leanne: That would be so much fun. My husband and I don't share any of the top five. I have futuristic and he has context.
[crosstalk]
Adam: Oh, thats good. It's not paradoxical. Actually, there was a guy at that event that had both of them. He had both futuristic and context in this top five so we enjoyed him that he was omnipotent. That he was all-seeing.
Leanne: Have you talked about these activities each day with married couples or that workshop you ran last week. Do you have like a template for what is the right session with the clock for tame context when you are debriefing it, but you them contextualize or do you approach it quite differently depending on the group?
Adam: Sure. I would say there's rarely a time while I would just run the template back. One of the things Gallup taught at the certification was, you need to meet with the leadership to understand before the session to understand what their outcomes are. Does the activator appreciate it and you tailor it to what their needs are?
Maybe there's a lot of new stuff that has just come on board or maybe there's some shallowing between the different layers of the organization. You can do some things in your content to scratch, that different hitches that they may have in terms of when I do it for churches staff teams. I've got, I would call them modules. I've got five or six modules and say, "Okay, these are the options you can pick from."
One thing that's always vital and this is again from Gallup, is this threefold process called Name, Claim, and Aim. What are your strengths, what does Gallup even mean by these words? Some of your listeners will be like, "What are they talking about who you’re? What about context? Input for example but doesn't mean you love to give a lot of input, it means you like to receive, you're going to research a television for two weeks before you actually buy one.
That's not what it may look like it at first glance. They want you to understand how to define then you need to claim them and think how are these actually showing up in my life and then finally self-awareness and self-discovery is great, but what I'm actually going to do with them and how can aim them at the things expected of me as an employer, as a spouse or as a friend.
No matter what I do, especially in what I do for the most part which is come in the first time, those three elements name, aim and claim are always part of it whether its marriage or faith-based anything or in the corporate space. That always remains.
Leanne: Excellent. Like I said over 1,200 people that you've day briefed and I can still hear that you're very enthusiastic about the tool. Is that what keeps you motivated and keeps you going, because you love the tool so much and you love sharing it with people?
Adam: Honestly, people want to know that you're smoking what you're selling. For me, this will be my second drug metaphor here in two sentences but, when I turn people loose and they turn and talk to their partners in these workshops and you hear the harm of conversation and you start seeing the light bulbs go off. The end is like a drug. It's so fun to watch people think, ‘Oh my gosh. I knew about 15% of that or I knew a part of this can name it’ That's why and then they start filling in the blanks with their friends or they think like, "Okay, just yesterday my buddy here at church and our other buddy's to other pastors here, Gallup was running a special on finding all your 34 strengths. So we called it Strength Christmas. I've like whistle coupon platform and everything.
Brian, his literal last two strengths are the same as our other pastors top two. So we just laughed them like no wonder they cross the streams so much in meetings, but again that's part of what makes them unique and that makes our team here what it is and we love that. Just the strength in these conversations, whether it's around a workshop or here at home base, because I do a ton of stuff with our church here, it's like music to my ears. So that feeling is really what keeps you going.
My number six strength is belief and when I have a conviction about something that's what drives me to get it done.I'll drive across the state of Missouri and back in one day sometimes because it's the motivation of these people discovering this amazing thing that is helped me so much.
Leanne: I agree. That's why I want to encourage people out there that are listening that haven't yet had the confidence to step up in front of a room to listen in to some of the tips and tools at all that that the facilitator is sharing and then try to take that way, because it is an incredible feeling when you hit that white ball moment. You can't beat that.
Adam: Yes. I think as a facilitator you have this advantage, you can swoop in, do your deal and swoop out which for me means I can be just super authentic and super honest because of they don't like, I'm still cashing the check. I don't mean to sound crass. What I mean is a lot of times and your experiences as a pastor my old pastor used to call it the 50-mile rule.
If you bring in an expert from more than 50 miles away and they say the same thing you said you must have everyone's like, "Oh my gosh, that was so profound," just because they're this outside voice. So, being able to be privileged to be that outside voice to other folks is a big deal and for me especially in the corporate space, there's a big difference between people opting into a workshop like a class at church or being told by their boss, you will come to this workshop.
That's for me where the rule comes in because I know a lot of these people are sitting there, crossing their arms and rolling their eyes thinking, here's one more thing. You've got the element of surprise. If you really nail it and you bring the energy and sincerity, it can really make a difference to people and that to me is a lot of fun.
Leanne: I'd love to ask you, what kind of things do you do to bring in that element of surprise? You can share.
Adam: If you connect well and teach well but don't apply it well, then it's irrelevant.
If you connect well, your content is weak and then you apply it, then it ends up being shallow, because the actual content wasn’t really there, you didn’t have a firm foundation. If you teach great content and apply it really well but you never connect with the audience, it’s going to be boring and they're never going to give you a shot. I try to have those things in mind, "How can I connect with folks, how can I be authentic, how can I not take myself too seriously?"
I think people want to just experience a real person, so how can I connect with them usually through some self-effacing story or something. How can I deliver this content with energy and precision? Finally, what’s the value in actually doing something about this and how can we lead them with concrete mixed steps. All this three of those things are vital not all of us are great at all of them, so if you can at least be-- I don’t want to say mediocre. If you can be at least adequate in all of those areas, and really do one of them well, I think that’s what leads to success.
Leanne: Yes, fantastic, and I guess most people differentiate on if at least you got the baseline for all three. Some people I’ve sometimes differentiate on the content and that is the expert in that field.
Adam: Yes, and just blow people's minds.
Leanne: Yes, they are an entertainer but they can still hit the mark with content and the application, but they differentiate on their ability to bring the fun in to that. Yes, that’s interesting.
Adam: It makes them memorable in its own way.
Leanne: Yes, for sure. So your communications rank has been with you, were you a great storyteller when you were a kid? Is this some new skill that you've developed because you've become a pastor and leading teams and you've realized it’s an effective way of connecting with people?
Adam: Sure, that’s a great question, I’ve always loved good stories, and my dad was a great storyteller. I'm a second-generation pastor, so listening to him practice on Saturday nights and watching how a well-placed and well-delivered narrative can speak to people and touch people in a meaningful way. I saw light growing up. I out of college did a lot of youth ministry and what I loved about middle school and high school kids is, when you’re trying to talk to them. When you are facilitating or presenting, they let you know if it wasn’t going very well, because they would look at their phone. Their lights would be evident and it would be like, "Guys I can see your phones," and I think that was a great way to cut my teeth because instant feedback.
To me it was about, "Okay if I’ve got a limited amount of time with people’s attention, how can I really capitalize on the time that I do get, and how can I maximize the impact of the point of whatever we're gathered around." I was a shy kid but I moved around a little bit and I figured out, "Wait if I don’t make any friends myself I won’t have any," I think that’s partially where it came from, it’s just necessity.
Leanne: I love that you talk about the brutality of middle school kids and their phones, because you work with a lot of older audiences, their poker faces are good. Actually, we've got to be intuitive to find out are their eyes glazing over of are they just faking their interest, what’s going on.
Adam: Yes, that’s right, as adults we fake it in the name of being polite, I’d rather they give it to me straight. Play candy crush or whatever and I’ll know how I really seem.
Leanne: I also get it interesting that you observed your dad practicing his sermon on a Saturday night. That obviously provided the really great role model for you in terms of rehearsal being important. Is rehearsal an important element for you, or are you just so confident now that you can wing it?
Adam: That’s a good question. What I do is, any time I’m going to preach, I have a manuscript and I read it a bunch. Some of that is so I don’t make some off colored joke that sounds funny to me in the moment and then I realize after I said it, it’s not appropriate. That’s like gag rails for me, I probably should practice more if I’m being honest, I will say, I’m never not nervous. Not necessarily nervous when I’m doing it but Saturday night I sleep great all the time and that’s when I’m doing a sermon or a Strengths workshop. In the morning I always feel a little nauseous, have some stomach stuff going on, so my nerves occur more before the event than during the event, which I’m thankful for in an odd way.
I have a regime of I try and get everything done on Tuesday and then read over during the week and run through it on Sunday morning. Yes, I never want to do a Saturday night special, that’s what they call it in the business where you haven’t prepped, because people can tell and you’re not giving your best, which is what you owe them. It’s important to me to not do the Saturday night special and it’s important to me to do what Andrew Stanley who's our very influential pastor in Southern America, which is different than South America. The Southern portion of the United States of America, it’s all right, he says, "What I try to work for," is what he calls, "Internalizing the message," I think that’s applicable to what type of facilitator you are.
People know if you’re just reading stuff, it seems weird, but if you’re speaking from a place of sincerity and this content is coming from you not just being an expert, but from you believing it. That makes it compelling to people.
Leanne: Audiences can detect if the message is inauthentic but you can’t actually tell what’s different about it. Only that the heart was in it the second time as an example.
Adam: Yes, it’s just more of a feeling.
Leanne: You can’t actually put your finger on it; you can’t go all out because their voice was at this level. It’s more like "No I actually can tell I believed it was something that I heard that just triggered that response.
Adam: Yes, there is a conviction that speaks, even without seeing them just in the audio. If you ask me a question I have a wooden paragraph answer, the audience would be like, "What are we doing here?"
Leanne: That’s right. Now, tell us a bit about, so delivering a sermon is very different to running an interactive workshop. What do you think the skills are required for someone to be a good facilitator or a trainer in that group workshop environment?
Adam: I actually looked around your website and I was like, "Those were some of the things I was going to say." I think one of the best tips is to-- I think great facilitators ask great questions, in a Socratic way if I try and sound like I have a Master’s degree. Socrates would ask his pupils questions until they arrived at the answers themselves. As a Strengths Finder, Clifton Strengths Finder facilitator my job isn’t just to tell them information, it’s to help lead them to their own self-discoveries, and you do that through great questions. That’s one thing I would say, is ask great questions.
The second thing I would say is get them talking within the first few minutes in under five minutes for sure, even under two or three. That sets the pace for the rest of the session, “This person isn’t here to give us the big information down, they want us to interact and have some conversation around these ideas." I think that really sets the tone and it changes the environment when people understand, "Okay this is participatory and not just audible.
Leanne: Yes, and they're so grateful, the audience is so grateful like, "Thank you for making it interactive."
Adam: Yes, not just another-- in church we call that sit and get, not just a sit and get. The other thing is-- I have discovered people are really willing to turn and talk to each other in a group of two or three. After that’s over if you ask for feedback or some type of answer or call out to the general group, oh, its crickets. Sometimes if I hear somebody overhear something like a great nugget, I will go to the individual and say, "Hey would you mind sharing that with the group?" I've stopped doing the, "Hey, who wants to share a great thing they said," because if you’re in a group of even as few as 10 people, it takes on a different dynamic, from when it’s just you and a partner to the whole group.
I guess that’s what I would say is, getting them talking quick, ask great questions, and don’t necessarily surprise people by asking to talk in front of the whole group. You may not mind that as the facilitator, but it turns out a lot of people do.
Leanne: Yes, so you hover around, wait for something good and then target them, that’s fantastic. I get the same thing, I’ve actually gone the group approach and you’re lucky when there is one or two extroverts in the room, they are usually the ones answering every question anyway. It would be good to go, "Hey," and then give them the time to think about it, so they have time to prepare their response when they do end up sharing it.
Adam: That’s right, most people don’t mind if they know what to expect, people don’t like being caught off guard. That’s another sharing space thing is I assume everyone is like me and has no problem; I can’t wait for someone to ask me my opinion of something. Not everybody is like that, that's been a good discovery, I’m glad to hear you’ve had the same experience.
Leanne: Yes, absolutely. I'm interested in hearing, have you had any situations when running strengths that have not gone the way that you planned. Maybe someone says, "This aren’t my strengths, I don’t agree," or there's been a conflict in the room or something’s derailed your workshop. Has anything like that happened in your experiences?
Adam: Sure. The first thing that I thought of when you were talking about that is, some of my stuff has been technical. Like the HDMI cable wasn't present, or they told me to bring X adapter and I did, but it was really something else. Slides aren't a big deal. You can certainly survive without then but, sometimes I think that visual aspect is important. It helps people understand, "Oh, I should write this down, it's on the slide." Not having those kind of threw me off a little bit once. But it wasn't anything that irrecoverable.
One of the first things I do in my workshops is what someone coined, "uncovering resistance". I actually try and ask--That's the first thing I ask is, "What questions do you all have?", or I invite their questions and even skepticism to some degree. I always begin my workshop establishing the sociological research about strengths, and I try and head off some of those things that they pass. I talk about, "Sometimes you may not feel like this on you, that's alright." I have a little deal I go through where I check the boxes on four or five different objections people might have. So, I try and take a proactive approach. Probably my biggest bomb, this is something I use in my workshops is, "It wasn't a workshop facilitation, it was a public workshop service."
My first year in Kansas City we had big outdoor Christmas service at one of our shopping centers, it’s like this outdoor mall, where there's a big Christmas tree and very scenic, and all of that. There was like 200 something folks there. As it was starting, our music leader was playing some Christmas songs and her guitar wasn't on. I was like, "Oh, man. What happened?" Well, her cord had fell out. So later on as a part of the gathering I'm going to talk for about 10 minutes, and as I go out to pick up her guitar plug, I bend down and rip my pants.
[laughter]
Like split them wide open, and it's like, "Oh my gosh. This is the stuff nightmares are made of." You know what I mean? In December, in Kansas City, Missouri, it is not like real warm. So the cold breeze was a blow I’m like. I just had to gut it out. I just-- For the rest of the time I just waddled around like a father penguin, trying not to let anybody know that, "Here's this guy with his pants that have ripped." That was terrible. That was my one gory story of having to power through, yes. Yikes.
Leanne: Yikes, yes. I like-- We could all-- I could probably relate to the technology one. That always hurts, when you can't project those slides up, even though you don't rely on them, but it's just like you said, something extra for-- That stimulation for your audience. I can relate to situations where in the workshop things haven't worked out so well, and-- But not the pants one, that hasn't happened to me yet.
Adam: Well, okay-.
Leanne: Hopefully never.
Adam: Knock on wood, my friend. That's right. That's right.
Leanne: Now, what's some practical advice that you could offer to our listeners, those who are first-time facilitators?
Adam: I would say-- Again, people can tell when you're being yourself or not. Whatever it is that makes you authentically you, again going back to those three areas of teaching, connecting and applying, just do--- Use your strengths. Do your workshop in a way that's natural to you. Don't try and be like, Leanne, or whoever you've seen on TED, or whatever, because people can tell if you're trying to play a part. I would say, "Be yourself, and don't take yourself too seriously." People will find it energizing and compelling and maybe even fun, when they can tell that you're energized and compelled by the subject matter. You can have a little fun. That doesn't mean you've got to stand up and tell stories about ripping your pants or whatever.
However it is, you can make it evident to people, "Hey, I didn't ride in here on my high horse." I think that's really, really good. Again, I would say, get them talking early. Early, and often.
Leanne: I love that, yes. Early and often is a great note to end on. Now Adam, I've loved talking to you, and I can very much see clearly your top five strengths in everything that you've just mentioned. Just in the way that you present and talk about things, and how you actually make that extra effort to make sure that your audience are connected. It looks like you got to spend a lot of time figuring out your own strategies, that works for you. Thanks for sharing that with our audience. Where can people find you?
Adam: Sure. You can find my strengths consulting website at www.findyourwaypoint.com. I'm on Twitter and my handle is my last name, which is just @mustoe, M-U-S-T-O-E.
Leanne: Fantastic. We will link to all of Adam's Twitter account and his website on our show notes, as well as the Clifton Strengths assessment tool. Because I-- If you haven't done it yet, you probably-- I don't know if you're driving a car listening to this but, pull over now and sign up. It's like, I think-
Adam: That's right.
Leanne: -it's one of the better assessment tools out there. I love, I love it.
Adam: Leanne, thank you so much. This was great to meet you, and I really enjoyed our time. Thank you.
Leanne: Thanks Adam, loved having you on the show.